There are thousands of clinical therapists in the world.
However, of all the therapists in the world, only a few work with trauma and PTSD.
Of all the trauma therapists, only a few work with the areas of sexual abuse and severe trauma.
Of those therapists, only a few work with dissociative disorders, DID/MPD and DDNOS.
Of the DID therapists, only a very few work with issues relating to organized perpetrator groups.
And in that small subset of therapists, only a few work with more than two or three dissociative survivors at any one time.
And it is the rare therapist among that already vanishingly small number who stay in the field for more than a few years… or long enough to gain the experience they would need in order to be most helpful to the population of clients they serve.
So of all the thousands and thousands of therapists in the world, there are relatively very few who will have the kind of knowledge and experience that you are looking for when you need a specialist in the areas of trauma and dissociation.
Why do so many therapists refuse to work in this area when there is so much need?
And why do so many therapists leave the field after committing years of dedication to dissociative survivors?
It’s time to be honest.
First – please remember, I am one of the rare few who has stayed loyal and passionately dedicated to the fields of trauma and dissociation for more than 25 years. It is hard to find trauma therapists with that much commitment to the dissociative population.
I am on your side.
I will prove that over and over, and I am going to be honest with you.
Ready?
Here it comes….
DID’ers can be a difficult population of people for therapists to manage and address properly and correctly.
Gasp!
(She didn’t just say that.)
(Oh yes, she did.)
Yep, I said it. I know — brave of me?? Or stupid of me ???
Please keep reading, and please!! No throwing of rotten tomatoes at me !!
Most of you know this already statement to be true already, even if you are surprised I would say that out loud. You already know how difficult it is — I’m sure you do.
Now please don’t get me wrong or misunderstand my purpose for saying that.
I promise you — my intention is not to hurt you. My motive is to teach you something really important. It’s important because there is a real and genuine problem with not enough mental health professionals being willing to work in this field. It creates a shortage, and leaves many, many survivors without healing resources. That’s not okay. We need more DID specialists out there in the world!
And remember this truth as well:
Many of you are absolutely wonderful – without question, the most incredible heroes and the very most courageous people I have ever met. Those of you in this category are absolute diamonds, and I really cannot say enough positive things about you. You all are truly inspirational, and I am honored to work beside you.
Okay, so moving forward with the point of this post.
Unfortunately, the DID survivors who are genuinely dedicated to their therapy and who work hard to achieve their deepest healing are all too often undermined by a few survivors who are willing to do anything but work on their healing. This dynamic can be especially visible in group settings, forum groups, and inpatient treatment centers.
Oh, these troubled survivors will SAY they are working in therapy…. They will CLAIM they are dedicated to their healing…. They go through the motions, and they spout all the right words. To a point. And then they don’t anymore.
Because in reality, this small number of survivors is more interested in hurting other people than they are in healing their own pain. They are more interested in destroying others than they are in helping themselves. They are willing to lie about anything or anyone just to get attention drawn to themselves. They are very destructive and they are very sick. What’s worse – they might even be doing this purposefully, to discredit you, your therapy process, and your healing journey.
And these destructive survivors could be costing you a lot more than you realize.
Ouch.
I am sure as a population, this is not pleasant to hear.
*** Don’t worry — there are mental health professionals, and alleged DID therapists, who most certainly give the mental health profession a bad name as well. That is absolutely true. But for now, we’ll save that giant can of messy worms for another day.
Please know that I am not saying this to all DID survivors.
This is not a confrontation to everyone.
Those of you who are genuinely dedicated to your healing know exactly what I am talking about – I’m sure – because you have most likely already witnessed your healing resources being used up, beat up, and exhausted by fellow survivors whose intentions were far from honorable. Maybe you are as tired of that happening as I am.
The survivors who do this are sabotaging those of you who are truly trying to heal.
This is because the therapeutic field gets completely burnt out by “the troubled ones” and ends up not having the time or energy or interest to work with you. Many talented therapists simply refuse to risk working with other survivors after they have had some bad experiences with these destructive survivors.
So… the troubled survivors who are undermining your therapists are doing harm to themselves, to the therapists, and to you. They are attacking, abusing, and destroying your therapeutic resources, leaving you with less. These “bad apples” can potentially give the whole dissociative population a bad name, and frankly, this kind of behavior should not be tolerated by any of us.
These are the people who need a lot of boundaries given to them, even from their peers and fellow survivors.
Let me put it this way. I don’t defend the lousy therapists out there in the world. If their approach to DID healing is atrocious, then it’s atrocious. Just them presenting themselves as a “mental health professional” doesn’t mean I have to agree with their poor approaches to DID therapy or stand on their side. No way Josè. Instead… I separate myself from working with folks like that. I don’t want to be associated with them in any way.
My loyalty stays with whoever works for healthy, genuine, safe healing.
And that’s what I’m encouraging you to consider as well.
Now what?
If we want mental health professionals to stay working in the fields of trauma and dissociation, it is important to make that work worth it to them, and not an “exhausting nightmare” for them.
I am not saying that you have to feed the egos of the therapists, or provide support for them, or do any freaky weird boundary violations to keep your therapist happy. Any therapist needing these things from you is already crossing boundaries inappropriately. And of course, not all therapists are healthy or well-suited for working with trauma survivors anyway. Many therapists truly need to work elsewhere, and that is okay. There are plenty of other options for these clinicians.
Healthy therapists want you to make their work worth it by allowing them to genuinely do their job. We want you to address your issues, work on your healing, stay focused on your system, be honest with your feelings, etc. If you will do your job of focusing completely on your own healing, we as therapists will be thrilled with that.
Your genuine progress will be our reward.
That being said, what can you do to protect the relationship you have with your therapist in particular?
And how can you do your part to protect the resources available in the therapeutic community, so that therapists are more motivated to enter and remain in the field, and more survivors have the opportunity to work with truly skilled professionals?
How can you separate yourself from those survivors who are destructive?
How can you make sure you are helping the problem, and not creating the problem?
Here are some ideas of what NOT to do:
- Don’t lie to yourself and expect others to believe you.
- Don’t lie to your therapist. How can you heal if you are not honest in your sessions?
- Don’t lie about a therapist. Don’t believe lies about a therapist.
- Don’t gossip about a therapist. Don’t believe gossip about a therapist. Don’t spread unfounded false allegations. Don’t chase off or destroy therapeutic resources with false accusations.
- Don’t forget to examine your transference feelings, and recognize them as transference issues. Don’t forget how projection, transference, displacement, and amnesia can affect your thinking. Work openly and genuinely on these issues instead of blaming the therapist.
- Don’t attack a therapist because you are too afraid to address the real source of your anger.
- Don’t let therapists become the “bad guys” in your definition. Healthy therapists are your helpers. They are there to help with your healing. Learn quickly how to define the helpers from the hurters, and address that confusion as often as necessary.
- Don’t assume that all trauma survivors are automatically being honest with you (or themselves) when they are trashing a therapist. Remember, they may be in the “hate” cycle of the love-hate dynamic.
- Don’t assume that all trauma survivors are working for the betterment of the survivor community. Some so-called survivors are truly moles from the dark sides of the world, and are here to cause trouble in any way they can.
- Don’t let your jealousies and insecurities consume you and destroy your focus. If you want your therapist all to yourself, hire them to work 40 hrs per week at their full hourly rates. If that is not an option, be mature enough to know your therapist is going to have other clients.
Here are some ideas about what TO do:
- Be genuinely honest with your yourself. The more honest you are, the more healing you will accomplish.
- Be genuinely honest with your therapist. Your therapist can help best when they genuinely understand the issues.
- Remember that your healing is to be focused on you, your behavior, your feelings, your mistakes, your strengths, your weaknesses, etc. Your therapy is about you, so keep the topics focused on you, even when it is hard to look at yourself.
- Do your own internal system homework in between sessions. Your healing will progress as you put your own time and effort into it.
- Be kind, appreciative, thankful, and polite. This doesn’t mean to grovel or do penance. Just use normal social manners and social politeness.
- Remember that your therapist does not have to be your emotional (or physical) punching bag. If you are hitting too hard, redirect your anger towards your abusers, where it belongs.
- Give yourself adequate time to work through the complexities of your healing process. An experienced therapist will not rush you, and it is truly okay for you to take as much time to heal as you need.
- Separate yourself from other survivors who are troublemakers and instigators of negative drama. Just like school days, if you hang out with people causing harm, you’ll end up doing the same, or being tangled in their web. Their poor behavior will cost you. You can decide if that is worth it to you or not.
- Ignore the drama queens determined to cause trouble in front of you. If you refuse to buy into their antics, they will move on to other pastures. If you give drama precedence over your own healing, you will not be progressing in your own healing. Protect the entire dissociative community by supporting your therapeutic resources.
- Remember to think for yourself. All too often, survivors listen to any strong, authoritative voice that tells them what to do. If someone is telling you negative things about your therapist, set a boundary, stop, and re-evaluate all sides of your situation.
- Talk openly with your therapist about any concerns you have. Give yourself the chance to problem-solve any difficulties or conflicts that arise. Working through conflicts is an important part of your healing process, and it does not necessarily require a therapeutic rupture.
If you can truly apply these guidelines, you will be honoring your own healing.
You will also be showing respect to your individual therapist, protecting other ongoing therapeutic relationships, supporting the greater survivor community, and enhancing the larger therapeutic community.
Maybe most of you think that you are not actively involved in the destruction of the therapeutic resources, but if you support it, believe it, allow it to go on by your “friends”, etc, then you could be more involved than you realize.
You can either help to maintain effective therapeutic resources, or you can allow their destruction.
It’s a conscious decision that each one of you has to make.
Everyone, including the mental health professionals, has to do their part in protecting the few therapeutic resources available for dissociative survivors. We can choose to support the destructive people, or we can choose to walk away from them, and get along with the work for genuine healing.
Remember, if you genuinely focus on yourself and your own healing, then you are doing all you need to do.
You deserve peace, kindness, and compassion. Let’s keep those options available for you. And you. And you. And you.
I wish you the very best in your healing journey, with the very best therapist you can find.
Check out this looooong list made by DID Survivors:
Warmly,
Kathy
Copyright © 2008-2018 Kathy Broady MSW and Discussing Dissociation
If the patient is not motivated enough (for the therapist) then that should be the treatment goal of a therapist to increase that motivation not something that the patient is doing wrong! There are plenty of techniques for the therapist to use in order to help the patient get motivated –and telling what a crappy job they’re doing in it –is not one of them!
If the patient is lying, that is also a part of therapy to be processed not a problem for the patient to stop on their own. It is really common for people to lie in therapy and there are many ways a therapist can help themselves to get along with that fact. Not punishing for the lies is number one, in order to decrease their use. If you a case of munchausen and not a genuine did, then this comes even more important. Putting preassure and blame on the patient for lying is only creating more problems. Being genuine is also something that doesn’t come naturally for many bpd or did patients – that is exactly what their childhood has thought them never to be! It is your job as a therapist to help them break out of that false self, lies, game playing and acting out! Again not something you can demand from you patients but what you can help them achieve!
If the patient is demanding too much, it is not the patients fault if it feels exhausting for you. The patient is supposed to feel all the pain, need and demand in the world, realize you can’t be the fix for it, and bit by bit start giving himself what he needs. It is up to you, not to give more than you have resources to give not the patients responsibility to stop asking for it!
All of your rules for the patient are clearly something that are actually a very natural and good part of patient action that only become a problem if not viewed as such and dealt with enough professionalism. If you want to work with less hostile, less fragmented, less demanding people, you should not work in trauma field! Working with traumatized people is demanding, but not because patients are doing something wrong, but because therapists at times don’t remember how to do right!
It is your job to guide, set boundaries and give only as much as you can give. If the issue is that the patient is not addressing the real problems, then that indicates you have led the therapy go in the wrong direction or that you don’t recognize that all the wrong things the patient is focusing on could as well be instruments for the process the therapy is all about!
Hostile, lying, manipulating, not motivated, difficult, demanding – yes, but it’s your job to deal with that reality and make those the issue before addressing the issues you’d more want to work on. If it is a problem in the therapeutic relationship, it is something you should help the patient with – as it most definetly is in the core of where the pain resides.
You need more training and supervision if you see that patient behavior as something not included, wished for and used to help the process! Problem is in you.
Well said. It is the therapist’s job to handle the issues that come up with the client. Instead of blaming the client and tossing out platitudes about what the client should do, the therapist needs to offer better solutions for the client’s health and well being.
If the therapist is unable or unwilling to take these steps, the therapist should examine his or her motives for showing up at work. Maybe the therapist should examine other career options.
Wow…..Grateful for your empowering response! Love and blessings to you.
Wow, after reading this and another article with similar topic I am scared my/our T is going to dump us out with the car running. I agree with bits and pieces of all the comments. But I am really afraid when I go see my T next week she will be done with us all. I can relate mostly to the comments from soulfulgrrl.
I hope therapists of DID clients remember that while 90% of us alters are ready and willing to work work work there ARE those few alters who want to make her quit and send us away because we are telling secrets, trusting another person, disrupting the inner peace/harmony, etc. While I know it is my “responsibility” to “contain” those alters they are here nonetheless and until those negative alters work on their issues they are all going to still be here.
While I am working on “containing” the negative alters I am not in complete control and it would be foolish of me to think I am in complete control. We have an alter who calls herself “Witchy One”. She can be mean, blunt. She will let you know what she thinks and how she feels but her methods are not the best. I have only recently been aware of her and I try to “sit on her” (very visual task for me) but she gets past me – which I only discover at a later point in time. From what I am slowly learning about her I get the feeling she has dealt with the worst of the trauma.
I hope therapists don’t dump a client who wants to work based on the ins and outs of one negative alter. And I hope therapists consider that the most angry ones, most trouble-making ones could be the most hurting ones. They need that therapist’s utmost patience and understanding. We do not come into the DID world knowing the best of boundaries you know!
There is a song called “Whataya Want from Me?” by Adam Lambert. I am sure the song can take on different meanings for different people but for me this is my song a lot of the time for my therapist. Because I get so frustrated I want to scream “Whataya want from me?” to her. But then the song goes on to ask for patience and to not give up on me – keep coming around, I just need a second to breathe. It is a great after-therapy song to jam to on the drive home. (I have a 3 hour round trip commute to therapy.) I sent her a link to listen to it so she could hear it and know that is my song to her. If you haven’t heard it try to find it and listen to it. It motivates me. HaleyC
I realize this topic is from a long time ago. But we’ve been dealing with issues finding a counselor for a while now. I feel partly guilty because I know I still have a looong way to go before I can honestly say I ‘accept’ all of my insiders…. though this is part of my problem too 🙁
I have state mental health coverage. So for the state I’m in that meand I can only go (with my insurance at least) to angencies… most of which here specialize in substance abuse problems. I’ve been to 2 agencies that said they would see me… then when I brought up that I was diagnosed with DID the responses were far from comforting.
I have yet to even somewhat calm down over the most recent response… and that one was back in Nov./Dec. ish of 2009. — The counselor said “Well, if you get time loss with DID then how do you ensure that your son is properly cared for and attended to during those period of time?” I explained about how my system has rules about who is to be with my son… also how I can be co-concious with some – also how I have saved on my computer desktop a daily schedule each insider is to follow with meal times / nap times / household chores etc… I also have “Safety people” that they can call if they need help. We also have a document on my desktop where whoever was out can type up a quick synopsis of the day / time that they were responsible for. (ie… so and so called …. went to the grocery store… etc” Her response after that was still unsettling… “But all you have to go by are those notes when you have lost time.” She then proceeded to explain how she needed me to be aware that she -was- a mandated Child Protective Services Reporter if she ever felt as if my son was in danger…
I just feel sooo frusttrated … I stopped seeing her after a few appointments because she eventually said that she would work with me on depression, anxiety, and PTSD but that the DID was more than she felt comfortable with. – I understand that. But it’s just not what I need in counseling.
sorry to vent/ramble… just so fruatrated and overwhelmed. What am I suposed to do if I can’t find anyone willing to work with all of us… go to counseling for me only and then come home and counsel myself for the rest? How do you even do that? lol SSI wants me in counseling to hopefully – eventually be able to go back to work full time… that’s the root cause of my depression… I absolutely -hate- feeling isolated… but then again… I’m unable to find the type of treatment I need… 🙁
Sorry.
Sally
Am late on this one, not to mention half-asleep also so I’m going to leave a fair bit by the wayside, for the moment…
OK, so there was some, likely understandable, level of general frustration motivating the post but couldn’t that frustration be part of the point? The words themselves were not a random vent. From where i’m sitting they came across as a call to realise we are all, ‘haters’ included, part of a community of healing and that we don’t do this on our own… or solely with one therapist, as far as I can tell. That’s one reason any T worth their salt will insist that a trauma client try to maintain a decent support network outside of ‘the room’.
The choices we make affect the options we have, and it’s all well and good if many of you have not experienced such behaviours but i’ve seen it happen time and time again, in situations where both the therapist and the client could not, realistically and in the time frame allotted, alter an entrenched, long-standing dynamic.
Regardless, shouldn’t we all seek to own and protect the healing process as a whole? Therapist-client interactions do not take place in a vacuum and we do not live in an ideal world…
unfortunate as it is, not everyone will receive the firm, understanding assistance they so desperately need exactly when they need it. and yes, perhaps those who most desperately need it are those displaying such extremes of behaviour as have been mentioned here. then again, perhaps not.
one post cannot cover all circumstances but it can alert us, in our hearts, that part of what healing involves is coming to terms with the fact that our actions have consequences that extend well beyond the boundaries of any one relationship.
of course we all have different, often seemingly unbearable experiences, and those affect our judgement calls more deeply than most would imagine. but that doesn’t mean we don’t owe something to ourselves, as much as to our therapists. something that at least strives to be ‘good enough,’ such that we might move away from the behaviours that are so damaging as to potentially destroy the very resources we all rely on.
If we get just one chance at true healing with one decent T then we are lucky. Many don’t.
Healing isn’t something we can find unless we are willing to face ourselves… those behaviours aren’t facing ourselves. They’re running away and I don’t know how fair a call it is to put the responsibility for realising that entirely in the hands of a therapist.
You show up to find a chance, somewhere in it all, to live. to learn. to know that you are not alone in your struggles because you have your therapist with you but do remember that at the end of the day, they are /your/ struggles.
A shared foundation from which to heal them is vital, yes but the kinds of behaviours discussed here impact the therapeutic relationship so deeply as to impair its very creation. And if there’s no beginning, let alone foundation then how can we expect a significant enough relationship to rebuild what was shattered by the trauma?
We work in the present. Hopefully we do that with a sense of relative equality, even under the most trying circumstances. I know this is a sensitive topic so I get that much of what I’m saying may not ring true for everybody but I firmly believe that therapeutic assistance is a gift that needs to be unwrapped with great care, and only when we are ready…
I doubt that this post was meant to blame anybody or make them feel beyond the reach of therapy. It’s just that those who seek help often go into it without realising that healing requires great sacrifice and a willingness to be vulnerable in unique, rarely encountered ways. It isn’t just a check-list you can run through and voila.
It’s a choice you make, each and every day. A choice to risk building something that might never have been there in the first place… or to return to more familiar, if often dangerous, ground. We do not make that choice alone, thankfully… yet I don’t think we can always expect our therapists to be absolutely ready to step up to the plate, either.
It isn’t the behaviours that are the thing of it, nor the fact that we find them so difficult to combat. In my experience, when there’s a real chance that the therapy is going where you need it to go, there is always a moment where a very real, uncannily intimate connection takes place. But that can and all too often is blocked off by the kinds of extreme behaviours touched on here. If that block happens time and time again then healing simply cannot take place. So is it really such a crime to admit that maybe one or both of you just isn’t ready for it yet?
Sometimes the walls are just too present, and that isn’t a matter of fault so much as the nature of human experience…
we will heal but it happens by degree, when we come to know new ways to be with one another. for better and for worse.
Shenison – Really brave and helpful post – Thanks so much!
wow really cool post shennison.
I really liked what you said about the fear.
Most people IRL think I fear nothing.
But in reality, f=I function by fear.
Fear is why I present such a front of having no fear.
Its ALL about fear.
Well maybe not all, lol, but ALOT of how I function is based on my response to fear.
I too am in T to work on my stuff, but I have to battle other parts, and I mean battle, to try and get past the fear and really dive into therapy.
I skirmish around the perifery, and sometimes go in a little, but I am terrified of what is w/in, and so avoid. 🙁
Fear.
Yup, well said.
And it sounds like you got a good T, thats wonderful to hear 🙂
Thx for posting this, It was helpful to me and likely will help others as well.
Yup, I enjoy this blog, don’t allus agree 😉 but its surely interesting 🙂
I realize I’m a little late commenting here. I’m a little behind in everything this year – it has been a year of change for me and so, it has been a year of falling behind.
I have a few reactions as I read this topic and all of the comments and responses.
1) I think there is a segment of every population that is destructive. To single out the DID population seems strange to me.
2) I know exactly what you mean about people who are determined to work on their issues no matter what it takes and those who only say that is what they want. I find it so frustrating when I come across people in blogland whose journey echoes mine, but who constantly fight against good advice, therapy or techniques that might help them. I always just assume these people are “not there yet.” I can see how the behaviors you described could make it very hard to work with such people, but… I have to disagree with some of what you said.
I don’t think people behave in these ways because they “want to hurt others or themselves”. I think people are afraid to give up the survival techniques that have worked for them throughout their lives. Even though they want to move past the pain, they are afraid, and fear is an excellant motivator.
Ididn’t seek out therapy of any kind until I was 47 years old. I fought it, I stayed out of hospitals and managed to live my life pretty well… even though I was miserable and depressed/suicidal much of the time.
When I did seek out therapy, I lied to myself about what I wanted from it and swore to myself that I would NEVER tell my secret – that I dissociated. (I ddn’t even know the word three years ago)
When I did tell my first therapist about the dissociation, it was after he had seen it happen and asked me about it. It was the hardest thing I’d done, to that point, admitting that this did happen.
As soon as I told him, I became a little child in that relationship. I didn’t want to, it just happened. I didn’t know wht transferance was. No one had told me this would happen.
My “normal” was to be obsessive. I became obsessive about my therapist. I stalked him. As I read your list, I realized that I would fall into that category of “bad apples”. I didn’t stalk him with any ill intent… but I did find his adress after a lot of internet searching, and drive past his house. I called his home to hear his voice. Then I would go home and cut myself and go into long bouts of suicidal ideation (I’m getting pretty good with all this jargon, I realize).
This is what made me end my relationship with my first therapist. He had no idea about my obsession. I found a new therapist, and after a month or so I told her why I had to leave the first one. We worked through it, she explained about transferance, and she also told me that it was veyr important to my recovery that I ALWAYS tell her when I had ANY feelings about her. Whether these were feelings of love, anger, fear, whatever, i was to tell her right away. This was very hard for me. She has allowed me to email her, and through writing I’ve been able to tell her about my feelings. Over time it’s become much easier. Even when I am angry with her (and I believe that always happens in therapy over misunderstandings or something) I tell her and we talk about it and work it out. This has been incredibly helpful in all of my relationships because it has built up my confidence about expressing my feelings.
I did eventually tell my first therapist about the obsession. That was hard. I felt really rejected by him at first, when he wouldn’t respond to what I had said (I sent him an email – my usual cop out way of handling feelings too intense to handle in person.) I ended up emailing him half a dozen times before he finally responded. Over time, I have worked out my feelings with him and I have become confident that he doesn’t hate me or fear me… and I think he understands now why I had to switch therapists (because at the time it felt like a break-up and I couldn’t even tell him why I was leaving.)
Okay, i had a ton to say about this, obviously, but the main point is that I think people who are not ready to live without the “gift” of dissociation are terrified of being in therapy that may change this strategy and make life even harder than it already is. I don’t think people behave badly to their therapists because they enjoy hurting others or themselves… but because they are afraid.
Thanks for reading, and I really love this blog.
Thank you for this post and giving so much of your life that others have the chance of healing.
I have only one gift to give those that have the gifts and choose to use their gifts to help me and that is to heal.
You know what is harder than finding a good therapist? Finding a good client. Smile
The not wasting resources extends to hospitals. If I am there someone else can not be.
Thanks MFF –
Yes, choosing to heal – and really and truly doing the hard work it takes to heal — that is definitely the greatest gift you can give to your therapist and the people supporting your healing journey.
Nothing makes my day brighter than having one of those incredible sessions where things just really just fell into place.
Thank you for your kind words – I appreciate that.
Kathy
yes it does help in some ways. I think I am just so confussed and dont trust myself. I find it very difficult to believe I was abused. I still think that the self harm, bulimia, prostitution, alcoholism is just me being bad. I try to talk to my therpist about the lying/ (denial??) but i get pushed into the background.
thanks for your help
@ vickilost – I’d be interested to hear more about this. I spend so much time digging for the truth, I can’t imagine what they’d be to lie about to a therapist.. apart from possibly saying “I’m fine” when clearly I’m not?! 🙂
Hi again. What about difficult clients that lie? What do you do about that? How do you know if what they are saying is real if they themselves dont know ? Where are the boundaries here? Does anyone else struggle with this??
Hi vivkilost –
Here’s a quick reply —
It sounds to me like the kind of “lying” you are referring to could be more a symptom of dissociation and denial than the hurtful, deceitful lying that causes harm to others.
Try looking at this other blog articles, and see if they apply to what you are talking about:
“Believing a Lie — the foundation of dissociation”
http://discussingdissociation.wordpress.com/2009/06/20/believing-a-lie-%E2%80%93-the-foundation-of-dissociation/
“Denial – does it help? or does it hurt?”
http://discussingdissociation.wordpress.com/2009/02/06/denial-does-it-help-or-does-it-hurt/
Do those blog articles address what you are concerned about?
Kathy
thank you for an excellent post dollswise.
dollswise – thank you so much for your comment! You made my whole day.
soulful
And soulful….
Your kind words to me have made my whole day as well.
Thank you.
Kathy
WOW, excellent post Dollwise, I gonna keep a copy of that post you just did if you don’t mind!
Thx
Hey Soulful,
Actually, far from bringing things “off track” I think you rather brilliantly brought the discussion “On Track” by a really well written description of balancing and working with the various internal responses that do come up within oneself amidst such a therapeutic relationship, and the work of processing trauma..
Really constructive and right to the heart of how to work within navigating such therapy – Great job!
*** Kinda got off topic for a few…. so sorry… but it all kinda relates ***
We see our therapist as an “authority figure”. Any authority figure in our eyes is a TAD scary. So, when we started seeing him it was very frightening for the host because she is used to authority figures hurting us. Not to mention this therapist is a male. She has never trusted men so going to a male therapist was very scary and new. However, she made the effort to try and trust him and it worked. Now, she can’t imagine working with anyone else.
Now… there are some of us insiders that are very mean and would love to tell him off a time or two BUT we have an arrangement that we won’t interfere in her therapy unless it is previously discussed. Like, if he says something someone inside doesn’t agree with… we can’t just POP OUT and start spewing! The agreement is we have to write it out… think it out and then ask if we can speak. It may not be optimal but it works for now. BTW, this arrangement was NOT made by the therapist. It was made a rule by the insiders.
It would be EASY to pop out and start spewing off at him for some of the things he says and I wish sometimes we could do it! However, that would HURT the relationship we are trying to build with him. Most of us want to find some balance and healing. Whereas, others inside could care less and want to harm the process.
We try to be kind to all people… not just the therapist. IMHO, I think Kathy is brilliant and I think of there were more people on the planet like her then people like us would have a much easier time in healing. I would like to think our therapist is like you. Kind, patient, caring, wise and really wants to see us heal.
Some of the others inside do want to see us fail and do want to put a riff between us and the therapist but we just have to block them away because if we don’t they will ruin everything!!!! Not all of us want to “survive” this way. So many of us want to live and thrive and cooperate! The others that want to destroy all of this think they have to “die” in order for that to happen and it’s just wrong!
Sorry i got WAY off! Letting the fingers do the talking sometimes is a bad thing.
Kathy, please don’t ever quit doing what you are doing! You are one of the best I’ve ever been in contact with. I think the most of us are in agreement with this. We have read everything in your blogs and some of them twice and three times! Thank you for your dedication to people like *us*.
soulful (an insider)
Well it just is confusing because there just are a ton of issues here. The main one seems to me to be that the original blog post isnt just about oh lets just find a way to work more effectively and collaboratively together in the therapeutic alliance as patient and therapist, but it just also seems to be about some issues that have been kicking up of late regarding a little group of haters that apparently just have no life.
This getting mixed in has led others to some confusion over what exactly the original post is about, as its just not merely about routine aspects of dealing with navigating the complexity of attachment issues, but also is now including some pretty extreme examples of behaviorally and emotionally acting out.
Maybe I should have advised Alanon earlier instead of AA, as Alanon deals more specifically with establishing and maintaining workable boundaries and self care aspects.
In any event all these issues commingled have led to a confusing concoction, where extremes in behavioral acting out are given as examples, and in the confusion some naturally are worrying about the basic underlying symptoms that just do surface such as attachment issues, SI, and navigating internal aspects that just are kicked up by such in the trenches trauma therapy work.
I feel that what could have been and is an important aspect of discussion – how do we navigate the inherent complexities of attachment issues and DID therapy and not just derail therapy has gotten itself off track by focusing on extreme aspects of behavioral acting out, and a sort of please realize that trauma therapists are people too and need some cultivation and tending to.
So I find myself frustrated that what is actually an important topic is just sort of caught between extremes. Being diagnosed DID is a confusing and difficult journey, and I believe that patients do need to be helped to understand and learn their way beyond outmoded coping strategies, and through the complexities stirred up by transference issues.
I also believe that its the therapists job to protect themselves by how they work with people, how they terminate with those patients that they just cannot work with, and how they come to better grips with dealing with the exigencies of what just is a demanding field.
I do not believe its the patients job to be taking care of the therapist. Too many of us had to take care of the needs of our parents, so its not surprising that muddying the waters with pleas that we help therapists stay in the field is getting something of a backdraft here.
That both the patient and the therapist can be constantly working to preserve the therapeutic alliance in productive ways is a worthy goal and purpose for each to be working on.
Look, children act out, and if you just banish them, then the original attachment just is never worked through. This seems to me to be whats motivating alot of the backlash stuff going on in the wings here.
Then everyone seems to be screaming – Oh you are acting just like perpetrators. Actually on both sides, this just seems evident to me.
The banished ones are acting like enraged toddlers and the transferential object is acting like the victim…. Jeez, what does that seem reminiscent of?
Its really frustrating to watch, and I just find it all disconcerting and dismaying. And way too reminiscent of unhealthy family dynamics.
It takes two to tango, and two to tangle. When a therapeutic alliance goes astray, then both patient and therapist need to honestly evaluate what they can do differently in the future, and hopefully learn something from the experience.
Fundamentally if all that comes out of the aftermath is finger pointing, then noone is learning much of anything, and alot of reenactment is just being kicked up and kicked around.
And on and on it goes….
In any event I dont believe the original post needed to be referencing extremes, and I think this is where this discussion has just gone off track, into extremes.
There is enough of substance in the inherent complexity of navigating attachment issues, transference and countertransference, and of course multilayered processing which means that of course many responses can be felt and need constructive modes of expression and integrating into a safely boundaried therapeutic window that allows safe processing of difficult material, within safe and reliably consistent boundaries for both the therapist and the patient.
If childish transference is encouraged and then abandoned when it becomes uncomfortable for the therapist – then inevitably reactions are going to occur. How those reactions are dealt with by a competent and balanced therapist makes all the difference.
Love and Hate are just two sides of the same coin. Its still unresolved attachment.
Now there are some patients who see this DID diagnosis as some sort of identity in itself. I am DID – see what “They” did to me! Yes, things were done to you as a child and we carry those woundings into adulthood and unresolved, such woundings can lead to just wounding others with an over focus on “They”
But living in a constant state of seeing “Theys” in everyone is a very powerless and helpless state to exist in, the whole point of this diagnosis is to increase our ability to look within and find our adult resources in dealing with others from the more resource rich environment in which we now stand.
So if you are DID, then you have a job in front of you of learning how to access and increase your own resources and abilities to cope with life as it is in the present. Life on life’s terms, a day at a time. Small but important steps forward. Looking back on things from a grounded present that actually exists in the here and now.
If you are a Trauma therapist then you have a responsibility to realize you are dealing with a population with complex attachment issues and to help your clients work to empower themselves, not just appreciate what all you do. Those needs are to be filled by your family, friends, colleagues and supervisors.
Both patient and therapist have a job to do – and its hard work, paced consistent effort and self reflection when encountering stumbling blocks along the way.
DID may be a state of minds, but it is not an identity, its a way point along the path to becoming what you were meant all along to be able to do and become.
I have been reading the comments here and I think that I am missing something on a few of them.
First, I think that we all experience things differently, so none of us can
discount another persons experience, that is just closed minded.
Second, I am very new to all of this. A year and a half ago, I had never
even heard of DID. Being in the very early stages of therapy, is not an excuse for bad behavior. Do I ever have urges to “act out”, sure I do but I dont. I also have urges to rob a bank, and slap the neighbor when they anger me, but I dont.
Third, I have had the opportunity to come across some survivors that use their issues to behave badly. I honestly think that most dont even realize that they are doing it. They think that they may do as they wish…especially if it is their T. It seems that some take caring or kindness, as a sign of weakness.
Most of us commenting at this blog, know for a fact that some people are really not that great. So why is it so hard to believe that those bad behaving, acting out people, can include DIDers?
I am kind of jumping all over in my comment, but wanted to add something else. I am wondering if those that try to work on healing and acting in a somewhat appropriate way, are maybe a little overly sensitive about this subject. It just seems to be some over reaction with some of these comments. I am kind of dumbfounded over some of these responses.
H~
Kathy, Oh, how I would like to think this were always true. I hear what you are saying. But I think you are being a bit overly optimistic and wearing rose colored glasses. The truth is that often the path towards healing in the early stages of DID treatment are fraught with difficulties. Sometimes you are not who you want to be. The goal is what you describe, of course, but getting there means you have to first walk through the awareness which is often very very hard, destabilizing, and, yes, incredibly symptomatic. Of course it’s not always the case, and since I don’t see patients who go through this as you describe, I may be a bit biased here. But my bet is that I am not.
Paul…
It sounds like you are mocking me. But ok. I don’t really see the need for that, but ok.
I don’t quite get your point. First, when I said there were negative, destructive behaviors in the survivor population (stuff that really is not acceptable or ok), your opinion was to discount my experiences, doubting their existence since my experiences are different from yours. It seemed you thought I was too harsh or negative.
And now – you are saying I am too optimistic? And I am wearing rose colored glasses?
As a person, I am much more optimistic than pessimistic, that is very true. But you know, after 20+ yrs of working almost exclusively with DID survivors, I’m really pretty fluently versed in what the treatment process looks like — including the good and the not-so-good. And yes, while there are difficult times, and plenty of symptomatic behaviors, I still do not believe nor accept that DID survivors “have to” become destructive. Choosing to act in destructive manners is completely different than struggling with the symptoms of DID.
My whole point is encouraging survivors to make it thru’ their healing work without being destructive along the way. And with my client-load, I work hard to keep each of my clients functioning at their best all along the way. There really are ways to help people function at a pretty high level, regardless of where they are in the healing process. Maybe I’ll write more about that in a separate post.
Where do you work, Paul? Is there something I’m missing here? Are you also a therapist from an inpatient setting? Even so, if you’ve seen something different than me, then so be it. I don’t quite understand why you are challenging me on the reality of what I’ve seen over the past 20+ years. It is what it is.
?????,
Kathy
Thanks for your comment and reply. I was dx’d while I was in my MSW program in 1997 or so. That was a traumatic time for me because I thought I was “losing” my mind but in reality the dx just helped to clarify what had been going on. I was licensed in 2002. I have recieved treatment inpatient and outpatient as well as working in both venues. I’m sure I haven’t seen it all but sometimes I feel like I have. At the same time,I love my work and couldn’t see myself doing anything else. I have been pretty stable for the past 15 years or so (i.e. working, doing therapy, having a life but also sometimes going through flashbacks and stuff). I have thought about doing my own blog from my own perspective. A wild ride but one perspective that I think needs to be told. My clients don’t know about my dx because I don’t hink it is appropriate or necessary. They can know about my education or training but I decided to draw my own boundary there. There was a period of time many moons ago that I was very misdiagnosed and put on severe meds that severely inhibited my ability to live a “normal” life. I do take meds but they actually fit my sx’s; what a nice mix! I have read your blog from time to time and appreciate your perspective and work. I just finally decided it was time to write something and participate.
Hi again didsurvivor,
I’m sure a blog by you would be very interesting! I have worked with several DID therapists through the years — it certainly is a complicated and interesting road to be on both sides of the fence.
Thank you for being a returning-reader of this blog, and thank you for your kind comments. It’s genuinely nice to know my perspectives are appreciated from someone who’s been there, in all the ways of being there. Your participation and comments are welcome at any time. 🙂
Warmly,
Kathy
I am writing to those who can not believe that people can be so inappropriate to their therapist. Believe me. I am a therapist AND a person with DID. I won’t say where I live but I know from stories I have heard what happens. I also have compassion for the suffering that happens that causes a person to act so badly AND I understand the dependency issues/fears that clients with DID have with their therapists. I have been very fortunate to have had 2 very good therapists (one currently) who knows about bondaries and empathy and destructive alters and all that. I have been unfortunate enough to have had one therapist who acted on bad faith and I had to report him to the board. I thought a lot about doing this b/c in order to do this I had to give permission for the board to know about my issues. To say this was hard is an understatement.
BUT, I have known of clients who have done some of the above and the really sad thing is that it only takes one or two people like that to really hurt a therapist. Therapists do this work because they care deeply but they are also getting paid to help us with our healing. It is hard to differentiate sometimes what is appropriate behavior and what is not b/c we don’t know, weren’t raised to know what this is like. A good therapist will have patience to teach us but therapists are human too. This is complex stuff. I do work with people with DID and I have a good supervisor who helps me sort out what is what.
Hi didsurvivor,
Welcome to Discussing Dissociation, and thank you so much for your comment.
Your unique perspective in seeing and experiencing these situations from all kinds of sides is helpful. As a therapist, you have seen and can verify the existence of the inappropriate, destructive behaviors that I’ve written about in this blog, and you are aware of how clients can truly cause harm to therapists. At the same time, you understand the importance of giving and receiving appropriate therapy. (Writing about problematic therapists will be another blog topic one of these days – what a complicated topic THAT one will be!)
And yes, these issues are enormously complex — even that feels like an understatement, lol…
Thanks again for your comment. It’s nice to meet you. 🙂
Kathy
ugh FWIW, I went over and read the comments etc at rocking complacency(I googled it), out of curiousity.
Wished I hadn’t 🙁
Makes me sad 🙁
Thank you, everyone, for having such an active interest in this particular blog article. The participation in this discussion has been truly amazing…
There are several other posts still waiting to be entered — I often will wait and enter a post once I have had the time to write my response to it. Your patience is appreciated.
Actually, there are so many different topics being discussed all at once in this thread, I hope it is not too confusing. Anyway…. thank you for your ongoing interest in this blog.
Kathy
Love it , nicely stated dollwise!
Questioning your therapist can be hard to do, but must be done in order to develop trust I beleive.
My T is open to hearing ANYthing, and she is honest. (well seemingly…LOL!!!)
I finally starting to trust her some.
Thx
Oh there are actually 12 steps…
The rest can be adapted easily so that we focus on what part we ourselves play in the present in giving others the opportunity to hurt us, and such an adaptation can also help us focus not so much on any “Them” in the present, but moreso upon our own individual aspects and path towards our own growth and maturity.
Work on ones own recovery, not someone else’s would perhaps be apt as a guide here. And yes, do trust your instincts and explore what they are telling you, and communicate these questions to your T, they should be able to understand and help you understand that its just understandable that you are going to have mixed feelings about them. In fact its human to have mixed feelings – not so healthy to only inhabit one set at a time.
And yes, question your therapist – if they need to be right there is a problem, If they honestly listen and are flexibly open, and also deft at helping you with your concerns and help with working thru issues and back on track to moving along – then you have found a good balanced and astute T who operates with humility, as well as an understanding for the dynamics we survivors struggle with,. Both you and your therapist understanding that therapists are themselves human, and inevitably imperfect, and apt to stumble along the way at points as well.
Its not the errors and misunderstandings – its how they are dealt with, met and processed. Its also a matter of – are you able to feel like you can move on in working on your recovery? Or do you feel like you and your therapist just keep cycling with the same relational issues over and over again?
Some therapists want to help so much that they just do get scared and freak when you question them – because they want so much to be helpful, it sometimes can be hard for them to hear or understand and take in the question.
If you find one that respects your questions, listens to and helps you work with your both being human – well, thats recovery and movement forward finally.
Probably the same little clique ranting at RockingComplacency for her recent excellent posts. She has dealt with them quite deftly and handily. I just have to laugh at the sheer lunacy of sides this sides that…
Having a troubled past is no excuse for not exploring ones own dynamics in ones own relationships, and working to move beyond ones own set of repeating relational dynamics.
Maybe we need 12 steps for survivors – beginning with “We admitted we were powerless over other survivors who we have allowed to make our lives unmanageable”
2. Came to believe a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity
3. Made a decision to turn our lives and wills over to a power greater than ourselves, but not give over our power to other people., be they therapists nor fellow clients.
Therapists are here to help us help ourselves – period.
OK, now this is getting weird 🙁
I been on asst. boards for awhile, and you get some troublemakers sometimes sure.
But if its all on the boards, for all to see, then its better that way.
I don’t usu. privately email, as yes, it can be a problem.
But it seems to me, that the best way to deal with problems like this, is just to ask them to stop, and if they don’t, just ignore them. If its harassment, then get the facts if you can and call authorities.
I think Kathy, though it sure must feel bad to be badmouthed, that you just oughtta let it go. Don’t get sucked in. You have something to lose, they likely don’t. As you say, let your words speak for themselves.
I think, doing what you do, in such a public way, that unfortunately you will attract some unfortunately hurt people.
I also think, that this sort of inquiery should be kept off the blog…..get people to email you.
It taints it w/negativity and fear.
Sorry if you having problems.
Like others have said, I don’t agree w/all you write, but it does get me to thinking, and that is good.
Take care,
I not gonna post no more on this cuz I freakin some.
Walk away walk away.
Muffledones,
Thanks for your post. There’s nothing to be afraid of here at the blog — we’re just talking about some of the complicated issues that can happen. So… there are no worries about posting here, nothing scary is gonna happen to you here.
And yes, people are always welcome to email me at any point in time.
I’m glad to hear that my blog gets you to thinking…. that’s the best news of all! 🙂
Kathy
Good comments from everyone. As always, very thought-provoking and intense. As I was reading something kept bothering me, but I couldn’t figure out what. I think I have it now.
To me this post and the comments on it seem to paint a very black and white picture of something that is not all black and white. Seems to be saying there are bad clients and good clients. Well, I am sure there are. I have had experience with both- some people are “ok” enough that they never do anything “bad”, and some people are so destructive they probably should be inpatient or in jail. (And, by the way, the same could be said of the helpers out there)
But I think most clients (and most helpers) fall into a gray area in between. I will be brave and use myself as an example. I want very much to get better, I actually care more about that than anything. But, its not easy. I have trust issues born out of helpers who were anything but helpful, programs that go off at random designed to keep me from getting better (or other equally nefarious reasons) and I have had some really lousy examples of how to be in relationship with others. Not saying that’s an excuse, but it is an explanation.
And helpers are the same. Sometimes a helper takes something totally wrong because they are remembering how it played out with a different client, or they assume “x” is the reason for a behavior because it “usually” is when in reality they couldn’t be further from the truth.
I think it comes down to both sides accepting the responsibility that is theirs: Helpers have the responsibility to do good self-care, set clear strong boundaries, inform the client when boundaries have been crossed, and help the client learn about why they crossed the boundary and what they can do about it. The client’s responsibility is to take that feedbacka nd use it to grow, and to ask question whenever they feel unsure about what to do or unsure about their situation.
And I hate to say it, but, maybe there are so few good trauma T’s for a reason. If as you say (and as I have seen) these issues really are so common, then they are going to be a fact of life for any trauma T. Unpleasant, but true. And if a T can’t handle it, maybe they should be in another line of work. A surgeon who can’t stand the sight of blood just doesn’t work. In my mind, a T who can’t keep themselves safe, or can’t safely navigate the complex emotional worlds of their clients probably SHOULD move on. I have enough trouble keeping myself from falling apart, I do not need to have to deal with a T who is as fragile as a china doll. Part of being a good trauma T is being able to turn it off when you go home so it doesn’t eat you up, being able to set firm boundaries (from charging fees for missed sessions to filing a stalking lawsuit) to keep yourself safe, and being able to understand where confusing and destructive words/actions/behavior patterns are coming from and help the client turn them around.
I need to know when I screw up. Telling me its ok and coddling me will not help, but neither do showing me the door the first time I engage in a behavior or even know it exists. We don’t let people go on murderous rampages and then give them the keys to the city, but we also don’t give a kid the death penalty for lifting a candy bar. I think sometimes T’s wind up in one of those two camps which isn’t helpful to anyone.
Anyway, there’s my vent, hope it makes sense. (And Kathy, don’t take anything in there too personal, remember you are only one in a long line of my helpers and only one in a large group of helpers I have encountered in the community).
Alex
Alex of the Gobbies,
Thank you for your post. You’ve brought up some very good points.
One of your most important points, I think, is that yes — when therapists realize they are in over their heads, and they can’t handle the hard work involved with the dissociative population, then yes, they really should move on or get a LOT of supervision and education as quickly as possible. If they can’t figure it out, or if they can’t “get it”, or if they think that things like SI and flashbacks are gonna stop just because they say so, they are very wrong. So — good point, Alex — because you know — who needs a therapist that is actually not able to have the strength it takes to deal with DID.?!!! I couldn’t agree with you more about that.
AND — might I add — some therapists are frankly just looking for the “easy clients”. They don’t really want to have to work — or at least, not work THAT hard — so… if they think working with DID is easily, they are in for a shock. The novelty of it all might sound “fun”, but it is not an easy job. The issues are far too complex for anyone who is lazy. Lazy therapists needs to just move on down the road and find some kind of simple singleton problem to deal with.
For me, it is very hard to clarify what kind of client is not-workable. I have had 20+ years of working with some of the most difficult, complex, challenging people in the whole world and have found many of them to make incredible progress. I mean, truly amazing progress! And that’s from starting in places where those clients would have been on most therapists’ “Absolutely Do Not See This Person” list. (If any of you are under the impression that I refuse to work with difficult people, you couldn’t be more wrong!)
I will give practically anyone a chance. And usually, I give people several chances. I am far more guilty of giving too many chances than I am of giving too few. But that is because I am already committed to working with dissociative disorders. This is what I do, and I know how messy DID survivors can look in the beginning. That doesn’t scare me off.
And while I am willing to start working with any dissociative client that wants to work with me, I do have limits and boundaries at particular places and about particular issues. If someone insists on banging past those boundary points, I absolutely will stop working with that person at that point.
That’s how I do it. “Innocent” until proven destructive.
Thanks for the post, Gobbies. And no, of course, I didn’t take anything you said personal. 🙂
Kathy
Kathy
I think it would probably be a good idea to include the specific examples of negative behavior in the body of the post, as not all readers may get to the comment in which you list them, and it seems clear that several readers have parts who interpret this post to mean that being confused in session, having dissociative walls up that prevent complete honesty due to lack of information, and going through the standard cycle of transference (with its attendant negative therapist perceptions) are what you’re talking about here.
There’s an unmentioned piece of this dynamic that isn’t mentioned, which is interesting to me. Isn’t it the therapist’s responsibility to assess the stability and safety of a client, and take appropriate self-protective measures? While I understand that some clients are very draining and troublesome, it’s the therapist’s choice to work with those people or not.
In your post, you say: The survivors that do this are sabotaging those of you that are truly trying to heal, because the therapeutic field gets completely burnt out by “them” and ends up not having the time or energy or interest to work with you. Many good therapists simply will not be willing to risk working with other survivors after they have had some bad experiences with these destructive survivors.
So I guess my question is this: When it becomes clear that a client is an energy drain, a negative force, a destructive presence — isn’t it up to the therapist to end or change that relationship?
It really troubles me that the therapist is portrayed as the long-suffering innocent victim; if you had someone in your office who was involved in a relationship of this kind, you’d expect the “victim” to take action, wouldn’t you? Or is this somehow different, for reasons that aren’t entirely clear? I realize that the therapist has some ethical and professional standards to honor, but still, the therapeutic relationship is voluntary on both sides.
I’m having trouble understanding why a good therapist would permit this kind of destructive dynamic to persist.
Hi David,
Thanks for your comment. It’s good to hear from you.
Yes, if I were to re-write the blog article, I might consider adding the examples into the initial blog post — that’s a good idea. It’s always interesting for me to see how the various readers here interpret my posts. It seems to me that people very much interpret my writing from their own perspectives — which is completely understandable of course — but it also explains why so many people take such different “issues” with the various things that have been said.
Part of what I am trying to say is exactly what you are asking.
YES, therapists WILL set boundaries, and YES, they will end or change relationships with clients that present with too much negative force, destructive presence, energy drain, etc. THAT is a very big part of my point. When therapists are pushed too far, a number of them will terminate with the client, if not leave the trauma field all together. The therapist will set a boundary, and the client will be left without.
And the following point to that is…. if a particular population of clientele has a significant percentage of their population who are clearly known to be excessively difficult, unfortunately, the overall population of clientele is going to get a negative stereotype / stigma attached to it, and there will be fewer and fewer therapists that are willing to work with that particular population.
Again saying, many therapists will (and do) simply refuse to work in this area, leaving the clients without…
If y’all read back thru’ the comments already written in this blog, there are a whole bunch of folks that have already written in detail about their difficulties finding an acceptable trauma therapist. This is something y’all have already experienced as a population. You have told me that. What I’m adding to that fact is one explanation — one of the reasons it is difficult for survivors demonstrating genuine efforts at healing from their abuse to even FIND a good, qualified therapist, is because there are some assumed “negative stigma’s” due to the very poor behavior of a few survivors.
So when you see one or two or three of your fellow survivors acting poorly, just remember that their behavior really can affect the survivor population as a whole. Instead of supporting their poor behaviors, encourage them to do something less destructive.
I am not presenting therapists as long-suffering victims. Yes, some therapists are “victims” of criminal behavior done by their clients, but I certainly would hope (and assume) that those therapists respond accordingly, and not in a long-suffering manner. With the more chronic non-criminal destructive behaviors, I am explaining that some therapists will eventually set limits and leave, and by doing so, they will be saying that they refuse to be the victim of that client’s destructive behaviors.
I would hope that before choosing to end the relationship, those therapists tried other methods of stabilization and containment, and would have tried whatever healthy approaches to problem-solving that they knew to use. However, we are each responsible for our own behaviors, and even the world’s worst therapist is not responsible for the destructive behaviors chosen by someone else.
I am agreeing with you, David. A good therapist will NOT permit this kind of destructive dynamic to persist. And if the clients insist on being destructive, despite the help they are offered, they will be left without.
I hope that helps clarify things…
Thanks for writing.
Kathy
Hi Kathy,
I thought, as Ivory, when reading this that perhaps you might have had one (or two) particular people in mind. (I think I may have been directly contacted by one of them as some other readers may also have been in the last year) yet still i find value in your writing and insight into DID whether i agree with you or not! – and recognise that we are all influenced by our experiences of others.
So here’s a question – when you say
“Don’t assume that all “survivors” are working for the betterment of the survivor community. Some so-called survivors are truly moles from the dark sides of the world, and are here to cause trouble in any way they can.”
How do you manage this within the context of the online community services you provide? Surely if some DID survivors are a danger to others, isn’t it best that we don’t congregate in groups? 🙂
Wounded Genius —
Ok — let me see if I understand you correctly.
You are saying to me, that someone has contacted various blog readers / blog writers throughout this year and talked about me — I assume in a negative tone (considering the topic of this blog) — and has attempted to convince you, the other bloggers of what about me?
Actually, no, I do not know about that. So, no, I was not including that as an example in my thinking while writing this blog.
But I would like to know more about that!
Because, you know, it sounds to me like it might be a very good example of what I am writing about.
If there is a survivor (?) specifically taking the time to go around and bad-mouth me to the rest of you, then yes, that is what I would call destructive behavior. Is someone out there trying to destroy my reputation for some weird reason? Is there a good reason why you all should be persuaded to not read my blog?
Would you be willing to say more about that?
And anyone else that was contacted by this person, would you also be willing to say something about that please?
Thank you, Wounded Genius, for having the integrity to bring this up to me. I can’t say that I’m pleased to hear this news, but I would much rather know that this kind of thing has happened, than to not know about it at all. Thank you for speaking up about that – I really do appreciate that. I have no idea what you have been told. I only hope that my blog articles have spoken for themselves, and have shown who I am through what I’ve written. It’s more than obvious that so many of you do come here to read on a regular basis — thank you for that!! And no — you most certainly don’t have to agree with me, lol — (since when did everyone in the world agree on anything anyway, lol??!!).
So…. hmmmm….. This is very interesting.
Does anyone else know about this???!
Kathy
(ps: I’ll save my “mole” response to another comment, but yes, I have a lot to say about that topic too!)
Your blog continues to impress me with its insightfulness (is that a word?) and honesty. I have been blessed with two wonderful therapists. The first I worked with for about 7 years then I hit a wall and took a break. After a couple of years I had a crisis and needed to get into therapy again but she said that she could/would not take me back because my issues (PTSD, self-harm etc.) were more than she could commit to. She was cutting back on her hours and she knew, from experience, that I took a lot of energy. I don’t think I ever “abused” her but I certainly was difficult and struggled with trust and tested her a great deal.
When she wouldn’t take me back I was devastated, but in the long run it was best not just for her but for me, too. She felt I needed someone who specialized in trauma and I ended up with someone who is indeed a trauma specialist. I am happy to say that I recovered from my hurt feelings and we still keep in touch; I know now that what she did was “healthy” caretaking of herself and also a good decision professionally regarding my needs.
My second therapist has extremely clear and firm boundaries and does not enter into email correspondence, nor does she give out her personal phone number, but she works with a group of therapists who offer 24/7 emergency therapist support, so that is perfect. I just need to give myself permission to call.
It saddens me that there are so many individuals who are so mired in their trauma that they act it out on their therapists with such intensity. I am heartened, however, to hear the feedback from those in this community who have recognized these behaviors in themselves and have moved beyond them. I can only imagine how much work, how much commitment, and how much energy it took to heal enough to change those patterns.
But I do do lots of other bad things – like lying. i cant stop lying. The problem is I believe the things I am saying when I am with the therapist but when I leave the therapist i know that what i have been saying is just all lies. This is upsetting me alot and makes me feel really bad. And I have tried to tell the therapist about it but it is impossible to talk about when i am with her because I dont agree with myself and cant hold on to the reasons I think I am lying. I thought that I should go to another therapist to talk to someone else hoping that I would be able to ‘stay with my own voice’ and explain it to someone so that I can stop the lying. I am concerned that I am making myself mentally sick. I think of it a bit like a mother with Munchausen’s syndrome except I am poisoning my own mind for attention. My mind is getting sicker and sicker and I know that I am creating it.
I dont know if this makes sense – I am lost.
Examples:
I knew a person who told her therapist she drank antifreeze when she was out of town and the therapist didn’t know where she was.
Others lied and spread rumors about me. These things hurt me professionally and were not true.
Others have manipulated and lied to anyone and everyone for personal gain whether it was for attention, money, services, pity, etc.
Thanks for your comments about my relationship with my therapist. He’s the only person I have ever trusted this much even though I don’t trust him totally and he knows that. I was reading Winter’s comments about calling her therapist obsessively. I can’t call mine at all. He would probably think it was a huge breakthrough if I would call him. I will email sometimes although I save more of them in my drafts folder than I actually send. I really am afraid that I’m going to bother him. Just because I’m having a crisis doesn’t mean that his life should stop.
I am a faithful reader of your blog even though I don’t comment that often.
Hi again Kathy,
I hardly know where to begin in describing all of the things I did in those two early therapeutic realtionships. At first I think it was a matter of boundary crossing by constantly making crisis calls. I would repeatedly call the T, then proceed to reject each and every suggestion that was offered. When she didn’t get back to me soon enough, I would call her at her home number (which I had obtained somehow (I don’t remember how, but I know her number was non-published).
She was really worried about my potential for suicide and called my mother to try to get her to take me to the hospital (I was an adult at the time, albeit barely), and I took great offense at that, since my mother was one of my perpetrators. I stopped seeing her without dealing with that issue.
I had a part at the time who was an “identification with the aggressor” type. He decided that this lady needed to learn what fear was about and the rest of us just let him go to it. So we tracked down her house, and let her know that we knew where she lived by driving by often. I waited for her outside of her office and followed her (making certain that she knew who it was). Left her cryptic notes with s**anic symbols on them etc,,, This was all before the current stalking laws were in effect, so there was little that she could do about it. I had been stalked for a year by a violent ex-husband, so was well aware of how it was done and the effects that it caused.
The next therapist had heard about what I had done to the first T, and started out by saying “I have worked in prisons, so you can’t scare me”. That was heard as “I dare you”. So I proceeded to do the exact same things to this T and more with all sorts of indirectly threatening innuendo. She hung in there until it was obvious that I was self destructing and seemed intent on taking others down with the ship. So after one particularly dangerous overdose, she said “Listen, I can’t do this anymore”.
I was crushed by that, but learned that you can only push people so far before they can’t help you anymore even if they want to. The T that I was with next was a big brawny man. There was one threat launched in his direction and the next thing I knew, he was standing right up in my face with a deathly serious expression and a very LOUD voice saying “You WILL NEVER threaten me again, is that clear?” It was…crystal… He remained my T for twelve years until he died. During that time I learned (and all my parts as well) how to get angry with someone without trying to decimate them. I learned that the psychological torture that I had been trained to inflict on others as it had been inflicted on me, was not ever acceptable under any circumstance.
Now I have a really nice T, who can hardly imagine that someone like me could ever behave in such a fashion, since all that she’s ever seen is a reasonable, mature, relatively integrated person. I punished myself for being “evil” for a long time. I finally have been able to forgive myself while never forgetting just how far (too far) I can go to the “dark” side of things. These days though I sometimes forget about that since now when someone makes me mad, I just say “You know, that really p***es me off, can you not do that? Thanks.”
It took years and years to get here, but now I function in society. I hold a responsible job in the sciences and live a mostly ordinary life. No one would know that I used to be “crazy”. Of course there is always more work to be done, and some scars are still painful. But now I can GRATEFULLY accept the help that is WILLINGLY offered to me. I have lots of people to thank, including and especially the T who dumped me and the one who set me straight. It seems like Skinner was right “behavior is determined by its consequences”…at least sometimes 😉
I just have to say again that you are providing such a gift for the recovering DD community. Thanks for making me think and remember that long road I’ve travelled and those who were along for the ride.
Stay strong,
Winter’s Keeper
Winter’s Keeper —
THANK YOU for sharing your story — what a huge inspiration you are for everyone on their healing journey —
Your life story has covered so many of the points I was trying to make in my blog — I couldn’t have come up with a better example if I wanted too. You showed how the destructive behaviors were unacceptable (for you and for your therapists), how those behaviors came at a high cost to you and your therapists, that you have an understanding of where you learned those things, and that you were determined and able to get better. Wow. Such inspiration!!!
I am just soooo impressed to hear that you were willing and able to progress in your healing to get to a better place in life. Good for you, that’s just really so very impressive….
I am sure, in order to progress, you have really worked on your issues, your history, and your abuse. And yes, as you mentioned, a lot of dissociative survivors are trained, in their childhood, to inflict torture — either physically or psychologically — so learning how to process thru’ those memories, and to work with those parts of your system, and to teach them new ways of life is an incredibly important part of the healing journey. The parts that were taught how to destroy really have to learn new ways of living and being in this world. It’s not easy, but it is absolutely do-able. Your life is clearly a testimony to that!
Wow. Good for you —
I am just so very very impressed with your story of healing. THANKS for sharing that….
Kathy
Hi Kathy,
I have to say that I’m glad that you approached this topic. I know people who want nothing more than to hurt others and although maybe have not done what you listed as examples have done other things to hurt their therapists, their children, friends, family etc. Some of them don’t even realize that they do it and to what extent. They don’t see the world as anything, but in relationship to themselves and that’s it. Abusers are like that and some abusers are multiples. This category is certainly not limited to DID clients either, but there are many difficult/sick people seeking therapy.
I think in general therapists have many misconceptions about people with DID and as you pointed out last week also many people with PTSD and DID also show symptoms of Borderline. I think many therapists hear “self injury” and immediately think borderline. One reason that I’m not that active on blogs is because I am very leary about meeting people online. I’ve been burned in the past by “survivors” (not limited to DID) who have lied, cheated, gossiped, and hurt others.
It is sad too because I am afraid to be too honest with my therapist because I don’t want to scare him away. He has worked with abuse victims, but not with anyone that he knew was DID. He is trying to learn, but I am scared that if “they” come out, then he will think it’s too much work to continue. Last week was the first time that I really let “them” come out, and I’m really worried about seeing him tomorrow to know what his reaction is to it.
Box of 64 🙂
hi boxof64 –
Thanks so much for your comment. You are brave to be able to write these things.
Yes, this is a difficult topic, for sure. Ok, so… you do know what I’m talking about. I’m glad to hear that. Well, I’m not “glad” to hear that you know people like this, but I’m glad that you understand the point I am trying to make, and you’ve described the dynamic well. Thanks for acknowledging that you’ve witnessed examples of this kind of thing. Would you feel comfortable to say a little more about what you’ve seen? It also sounds like you have had some not so pleasant experiences yourself. I’m sorry to hear you went through such painful times. And thank you for having the courage to speak up about that.
With as much gentle care as you have expressed, I certainly hope that you and your therapist are able to continue working with your dissociative issues. I hope you can continue to be honest with your therapist, and have the courage to ask him how he feels about working with DID. I hope (assume) he will be able to have a good talk with you about such things, and I encourage you to be brave in being able to speak to him about getting some foundational work started.
I want to express the belief that your therapist is your helper, and he is there to help you with your healing. Since he has worked with abuse victims before, he’s got a good starting place, and yep, you might have to be really brave to tell him more about your insiders and your DID. There’s nothing “bad” about being DID! It is ok to let him know about your fears – that would be a really good starting place — especially as a precursor to talking about the next layer of therapy work that you need to do.
Keep up the good work, and please know that there are at least a few people here in the world that can be trusted….
Thanks for your post –
Kathy
“*clients hit their therapist
*vandalize their therapist’s property
*spread lies and gossip about a therapist
*refuse to pay their therapy bills
*steal from their therapist’s office
*slander a therapist or commit internet libel
*make false allegations about their therapist
*make false accusations and blatantly lie about their therapist
*break into their therapist’s office
*file spurious lawsuits or unfounded complaints
*peek into the windows of the therapist’s home
*steal money from the therapist’s purse
*rummage through the therapist’s desk
*stalk the therapist around town
*etc, etc, etc.”
I read this list, and it is atrocious for sure.
I read the posts of others, about how they were out of control, BUT GOT BETTER, and my heart SINGS!
So, there seems to need to be some balance here.
Yes there are atrocious clients(and I think they are the exception NOT the rule), and yes, I feel people should be reponsible for all actions of their body, no matter which alter.
BUT,
Sometimes they cannot be stopped w/o help. Forunately I have seldom caused too much discomfort to others, but I have done much that “I ” would never, ever do, but I do them, this body does.
So I can understand somewhat how hard it must be for those whose behaviour is very detrimental towards their T’s.
And THATS why they are in therapy in the first place….to fix these probs.
So, upon re-reading the above list….well, if a person does a crime, vandalism, assault, stalking or theft, then charges should be laid.
These are criminal behaviours.
At this point the T needs to clearly explain that these behaviour are unacceptable and as a result, they will have to find a diff therapist. The new therapist needs to make it very clear that such behaviour will absolutely not be tolerated.
I don’t see this as very complicated.
It is NOT just DID people who behave in this fashion, many client populations have people who will behave in this way. I don’t think this is unique to DID.
My T made it very clear right from the start that certain behaviours were NOT acceptable and would result in termination. If it involved a crime, like the ones anove, she would not hesitate to call the police.
SHE WAS CLEAR.
The few times I had an escalation starting she remained very very calm and reminded me calmly that the beahaviour I was exibiting would be unacceptable. She was CALM and CLEAR. SHE was in control of the session and HELPED me with my behaviour. She did not get herself into the fray by becoming fearful (BAD idea to ever show fear), or angry, she was just calm and firm. That is her JOB.
So as I read and mull over this post of yours, this is my latest thots.
Its definately a pretty polarized post you wrote…rather on the extreme end of things…
And ya, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, cuz I been reading here awhile. But if you were to take this post out of this setting…..it does kinda come across as a vent against ‘bad’ clients….(people who are seeking help cuz they NEED help with their behaviours)….it ‘feels’ like, in this blog post, that you are putting way too much on the client, and that you are venting against what is I suspect a very small percentage of the DID popilation.
The ones that have such out of control behaviours end up in jail, not out voluntarily seeking therapy.
I think the client has responsibilities for sure, BUT SO DOES THE T. And I suspect that some these horror stories were in fact avoidable if the therapist had handled things better, right from the start. This comes down to TRAINING, and experience, and peer support. Yes, it IS asking alot, but I also pay my T well for what she does. Fair is fair.
As far as SI, my initial T was very adamant against it. But when she saw it was for me a coping mechanism that was better than the others I would use in its place, she accepted it as a coping mechanism that was not desirable, but I needed to do until I had other better ones in place. My present T has understood from the start that its a coping thing, sometimes an attack to other parts, etc. She disapproves of me hurting the body, but we are working towards reducing these behaviours. Its one of the reasons I am IN therapy. If I ran into a t that was adamant against basic SI (as opposed to dangerous SI) I would run away fast from them, cuz obvo they do not understnad that you can’t just stop. You have to find out why you are doing it, and find some other better ways so that you no longer need to SI.
Finding a T that is a good ‘fit’, for your own particular issues is important. And sometimes that means switching T’s when you get to the end of what your T can offer….
Again, I beleive it is up to the T’s to be CLEAR and FIRM.
If the client truly, with GOOD guidance, cannot control their behaviours, then perhaps they need to go IP.
MY thots.
Thx
Ones
I am glad you listed the behaviours that are bad in your comment to Paul because I was freaking out over your post. I worry so much that I am a bad client and that I am annoying my therapist. I worry so much about what i should say and not say to my therapist. I feel like I use up so much energy containing everything to having just one hour a week with someone. But I make sure that I dont ring or email her. I am thinking of seeing another therapist once a week too so I have someone else to talk to.
Anyway I dont do any of the stuff that you listed so that is a relief!
Hi vickilost,
Welcome to the DiscussingDissociation blog and thank you for your comment. It is always good to hear from new folks, especially when I’ve written something that was making you “freak out”, so thank you for posting! I’d much rather people come ask me / talk to me about clarification than to stay alone in their world, freaked out by something I posted. So — kudo’s to you for reaching out and speaking up about what was concerning you.
I am also glad to hear that you aren’t involved with any of the destructive kinds of things that I wrote about. That is very good news. Actually, you sound like quite a kind, respectful person, so… from what I’m seeing in your email, you don’t have anything to worry about. 🙂 I’m sure that you and your therapist(s) will be able to continue working effectively on your healing journey.
I’m glad you had the courage to post here. Thank you!
Best wishes for you and your healing journey –
Kathy
Kathy,
I find it hard to believe people treat their therapists in this way. To me, they are our helper. I couldn’t imagine yelling at a therapist, hitting a therapist! That just doesn’t compute.
I think the worst thing we have ever done was skip a session … even then, we called to cancel! I guess the mother gave us one good quality and that was “do unto others as you’d have them do to you”. I’d not want to be disrespected by someone I am trying to help.
I am thankful we aren’t like that. I think our therapist is probably glad too. I think we may be going a little too slow in therapy but… that’s okay. We can be “turtle” like. We were pushed all our life. He pushes a little but not to extreme’s. Very nice man.
Kathy, thanks for the tough subject and I’m sorry you have had to deal with clients like this. Hopefully, everyone inside here will mind their p’s and q’s when it comes to our therapist. He really does have our best interest at heart.
soulful
Hi soulfulgrrl,
Thanks for the comment. It’s good to hear from you.
I very much like the idea of “do unto others as you’d have them do to you”. I talk a lot to my clients about “just be nice to each other” (referring to insiders and outsiders) — it doesn’t always go over well, but you know… the idea is there. 🙂
You will progress a whole lot more in your therapy, even going at “turtle speed” if you are not get distracted by the kinds of negative behaviors that I have blogged about. Frankly, those issues can be huge detours in the deeper aspects of therapy — (sometimes that’s the exact point of them in the first place). So… even if you are working more slowly, by staying more on-track, you may very well be moving along faster than you realize!
Good for you to just keep working at your stuff, and I’m sure that you and your therapist can build on that positive relationship you have and get a whole lot more accomplished. Keep up the good work!
OH — and just to clarify for everyone again —
The negative behavior examples I provided were from a variety of different clients and from a variety of different therapists from a variety of different settings. But yes, I do know the examples to be real. The things that I have experienced directly, I cannot say or point out as such since that could be construed as a breech of confidentiality.
Kathy
Hi Kathy,
I’ve been reading your blog for several months, and think it’s fantastic!
I hate to admit that I see myself about fifteen years ago in your description of these problem clients. I managed to lose a great therapist, and terrorized another through that sort of acting out behavior.
Luckily for me (and my future therapists), I learned by losing that therapist and by finding an incredibly tough therapist who really didn’t care what I said to him, and wouldn’t take any crap whatsoever, how to maintain a proper therapeutic relationship.
In retrospect, I think that I was entirely too sick and unstable back then to get anything out of trauma therapy at all. I tended to see the therapist as “them” and reacted accordingly. I used to scream at her “You’re HURTING me!” when actually it was my own memories of OTHER people hurting me.
I have kept up with the therapist that had to refer me because of my atrocious behavior, and have had the opportunity to apologize for my terrible behavior. In fact, I’ve referred lots of folks to her (none like I was).I just cringe when I think of some of the things that I said and did.
Anyway, I love your blog. We are fortunate indeed to have people like you on our side in the journey.
All the best to you.
Winter’s Keeper
Winter’s Keeper,
Thank you for your comment – and thanks for being a long-term faithful reader! It’s great to meet you!
And thank you for sharing such an honest and inspirational story of change, progress, and healing… It is good to hear this. I really appreciate your honesty. Describing your behavior as “terrorizing” a therapist says a lot. Would you be willing to share more about the kinds of things that happened? If you are not comfortable with that, that’s totally ok. It seems that you have had to really work at some hard things, and you’ve learned lots about boundaries, and helpers vs hurters, etc. I’m so very very pleased to hear about your progress and growth.
I also think it is a strong story of hope that you and your former therapist have been able to repair your relationship and that you were willing / able to apologize for the things that were “atrocious”. As I’ve said earlier, I’m a firm believer in talking things through with the therapist, and it is really good to see an another example of where this process worked successfully.
Many kudo’s to you, winterskeeper. It sounds to me like you’ve made some excellent progress in your healing.
Thanks for sharing!
And please do keep coming back. 🙂
Warmly,
Kathy
I hate to challenge you on this Kathy. I brought up self-destructive behaviors as one example. But even those who are very angry and make it hard for a therapist (those you consider “bad apples”) are just as worth trying to reach.
Of course if you are being abused (the therapist) by blatant boundary violations and such, these need to be addressed. But I see the inpatient community too, and talk regularly to clinicians in this community who I know and respect, and I don’t see this. Of course there are those who are difficult. I have met the impossible patients inpatient. But try working in an alcoholic unit or psychotic disorders unit. You may have a different impression.
You brought up specific examples in your post. Some of them I want to challenge, because they need to be challenged otherwise they present a narrow view.
1. Lying. This is common. Everyone knows this. A good therapist knows how to handle this. Lying is a coping strategy. You paint it as a trait of the “bad apples”. And to those with DID, lying is very complicated and delicate, because to parts it can be truth.
2. Attacking therapist. This is also very common. And a coping mechanism. Of course at various stages a survivor will attack the therapist because they are getting too close and are a threat to their old way of coping. But, again, you paint this as a trait of the “bad apples”.
3. “Bad Guys” as therapists. I can tell you truthfully, that I went through a few years without therapy, and somewhat asymptomatic, thinking all the therapy and hospitals caused my troubles (that it was iatrogenic). This did not make me a bad apple. It was where I was at the time. It allowed me to build a life in my late 20s. And then I got back to therapy in a different way when I became symptomatic again and the normal coping didn’t work. By your definition, I would have been a “bad apple”. But, none of my treaters held that time period against me, and I went back to all the very same ones.
The ones who “claim” they are dedicated to healing, may in fact be doing the best they can. It’s not the therapist’s job to judge. Just as it’s a judgement to say that the “bad apples” give the whole dissociative community a bad name. This is your narrow view. But it’s not reality. And how do you expect these “bad apples” to not be tolerated? What are we supposed to do exactly?
Then in your response comment, you list some really egregious acts, acknowledging that none of these you’ve experienced yourself. But these are not really related to the points you were making in your original post. Hitting the therapist, vandalizing property, stalking… then you are now talking about things which are basically crimes of one human against another. I fail to see how this is related to the survivor community as you originally wrote. These are things that happen in our world. This is why we have laws against them.
Respectfully,
Paul
I’m sorry, Kathy, but I agree with Paul this time. I finished reading this and couldn’t help but wonder if you have a particular (ex)client in mind. If so, it must have been a whirlwind for both of you.
I agree the client who works hard and dedicates needed time to healing is easier, but we aren’t all like that and not all the time are we a pain (as you pointed out – in all fairness).
But in all fairness to all of us who know we’ve been butt heads – we believe we have chosen a therapist who can handle our situation or we wouldn’t waste our time and money. We believe our chosen Champion can handle the task
Hi Ivory,
Thanks for your comment. I was working on my post back to Paul when yours came in….
As I mentioned to him, I am thinking of a bunch of people, over years of time, and not any one person. If anyone has worked in inpatient units, or has been in inpatient units, there are a whole lot of mind-boggling stories that come out of there. I actually could list a lot more examples than I have listed already — but, clearly, I’m also not trying to tell specific details where someone will know I’m referring to their specific situation.
It truly is amazing how far some people will go in acting out their issues. I assume the professionals that work in law enforcement are not surprised by how far people cross lines since they see it every day.
Have you ever sat in a room full of therapists and heard the “war stories”??? We all have them. We all have a had a few clients that were just bizarre or obnoxious or antagonistic or vengeful or completely out of control, etc. It really does happen…
But what’s even better …. I’m always glad to hear the stories of Champions that are strong, and capable, and able to stick in with this area of work. My whole point is to keep those Champion therapists HERE in this line of work!!! So clearly, Ivory, you are doing something right with your therapist. “Butting heads” is a normal part of therapy, don’t you think? lol… I do, lol. But having faith, and trust, and belief in your therapist is a great sign, and THAT is exactly my point as well. Let your therapist be your helper even in the hard times, and don’t turn them into your alleged “enemy”.
Thanks, Ivory — you’ve said it well. Keep up the good work.
Kathy
Well, then Kathy, this is something I am not familiar with. I did not realize that this was a common occurrence worth bringing up as a post. You went to great lengths to say how few trauma therapists there are, but I have to say that I would doubt there are very many patients who fit the situations you describe.
oh Paul….
I only wish there were as few people in this category as you are saying….
There was a day when I would have vehemently agreed with you. Actually, there were several years that I would have strongly agreed with that idea. It was simpler then…..
But my years working in a hospital program meeting dozens of new multiples each month, and now my years working online have introduced me to a lot of survivors from all around the world. I’ve heard a lot of stories, from both survivors and from different therapists. And while I agree that most survivors are doing their best to get their healing… there are some real “stinkers” out there too.
I hope that you have the continued good fortune to keep your distance from the trouble-makers!
Kathy
Thx for confirmation Kathy.
Nother thing bout clear communication btwn T and client, is to be honest, but not unkind.
My T said bout something I pointed out, she say its a good criticism and one she has heard B4, and I said it NOT meant to be a ‘criticism’, but just I pointing out something that don’t work for me. So she say, it more like an ‘observation’.then..LOL!!!
See I used to think my T would think it as ‘attacking’ if i pointed out what doesn’t seem to work for me in therapy. But I NOW realize, that my T LIKES to hear this stuff, cuz like you said, ultimately she wants to help me, and so these ‘observations’ DO help her to do her job.
So I would say YES! that clients do need to learn to speak UP! and tell their T’s wassup. What works and doesn’t work. Cuz we all different. And esp w/DD’s, its EXTRA confusing, so our T’s need all the help they can get from us!
If a T gets defensive, then I would be very cautious of working with that T. A good T should be able to take your thots about how she is doing therapy and work with them.
My T has worked w/DD’s for a long time, yet she is still very open to what I have to say about how she works.
I think its extreemely important that a T can handle these ‘critiques’ with aplomb.
If your T can’t…..then its time to find a new T….
Ya two way street….
😉
I expect there will be lotsa posts here!
BIG topic!
Thx
Ones
morunner,
GOOD point, I can have troubles too w/parts that got too many rules, and one that do not want to be there, and one that truly doesn’t beleive I even have a DD at ALL.
They can really cuase ptoblems, esp if they there and won’t go. They wreck a therapy session 🙁
ugh
I think it is nice to have the opportunity to sit back and double check our
own behaviors. Hopefully, the very fact that some take a look at how to
behave and act towards others, is a step in the right direction.
I do believe that the majority of T’s that work with DD, can recognize
the difference between clients who are truly wanting to learn and those
who act maliciously towards others.
There are those clients who know that they are acting badly and will
continue to do so, like it is an entitlement. They utilize the compassion
of a good T or any person, and turn it against them.
They really arent not any better then the people that hurt them originally, in my opinion.
I appreciate your honesty and the fact that you address the hard subjects.
H~
Hi Kathy,
Again a very apt topic. I am one of the lucky ones in that I have two wonderful experienced therapists that we work with. The more expert of the two was not taking on new patients but I ended up begging her for lack of a better word. She held her ground but directed me towards my main therapist right now and whom she supervises. She still is involved and will be doing the trauma part of the treatment. Anyway my point is she was and is very clear in defining expectations of us and herself. The therapist I am working with for stablization phase, is great, I feel like I can be myself with her, and she has strong enough boundries that I know she will call me on any crap I pull. Once I freaked at her through email, her response was she had no problem with me venting but dont talk “at her”, this and all of the above actually makes me feel safer and understood for some reason. I was honest with them in terms of me testing etc and that sometimes the test I will set up are humanly impossible to pass, I know this and try not to test that way but sometimes I dont realise I have done it until after the fact.
I think sometimes it is hard to recognise when we are being idiots hindsight is 20/20 right, but I think its important to hold on when we are going through things and when that hindsight comes, its important to admit and discuss it.
I guess I am going on and on and not making sense, its all so complex but what I have learnt that if a therapist triggers a strong reaction in one of us, it is very much worth examining the whys of it. Then again I analysis things to death.
Dont forget also that not all parts want to be healed or in therapy etc, I know our host does, I do, and definately others, but some are happy to leave things as they are and try to sabotage things, and its a battle between the ones that want help and to get better and the ones that dont. I for one really hope that over time this will change with the help of the two fantastic therapists we have and I know that I for one am prepared to help in any way I can. They said I am a tramatised part that has become a helper too and that I am very smart wow that threw me for a loop :), but I am proof that when given the tools to cope things really do get better, I know I have a long way to go yet but for the first time ever I have hope that I never had before, and hopefully I can help the others see that too.
Anyway I will stop going on its just your posts are so thought provoking.
Take Care
Kathy, I have read your blog with an open mind. I have disagreed with you on some things you say here. But, here, you have gone past the line, in my opinion. I am one of those wholeheartedly committed to healing. But, I was not always that way. I was suicidal, acting out, very symptomatic and was very challenging for my therapists. But, this was where I was at at the time. Some gave up on me. Others didn’t. Only slowly did I get to the place I am at with my full commitment to healing and responsibility in my therapy relationships. Your post is giving up on those who you determine are too hard to deal with by saying they don’t work hard enough or aren’t committed enough. This in blatantly unfair to them. With respect, Paul.
Hi Paul,
I see we are continuing with our pattern of disagreeing with — or misunderstanding — each other. 🙂
I am glad that you post – so thanks for that – because I think it is important to hear people’s thoughts in response to the things I write.
See, for me, in this post, I was not really even thinking of self-destructive behaviors so much. Self-destruction, SI, and all that kind of stuff would be a blog post all on its own, and separate from this one. Certainly many therapists do struggle with those issues. I’ll put that topic on my “to do” list. That’s a good idea.
For me, this blog post was more specifically about survivors that literally aim their angry destructive tendencies outwards to other people, and more specifically towards their therapists or various healing resources.
I am, for example, in this particular blog, referring more towards situations where:
*clients hit their therapist
*vandalize their therapist’s property
*spread lies and gossip about a therapist
*refuse to pay their therapy bills
*steal from their therapist’s office
*slander a therapist or commit internet libel
*make false allegations about their therapist
*make false accusations and blatantly lie about their therapist
*break into their therapist’s office
*file spurious lawsuits or unfounded complaints
*peek into the windows of the therapist’s home
*steal money from the therapist’s purse
*rummage through the therapist’s desk
*stalk the therapist around town
*etc, etc, etc.
(all real examples, not necessarily by MY clients, but real examples, nonetheless)
I am referring to behaviors that are purposefully destructive towards the therapist first. And secondarily, by destroying the therapeutic relationship, they can then be seen as self-destructive, but the destruction is initially aimed at someone outside themselves.
In my opinion, if survivors are too busy attacking outwardly, they are way off base in their plans to find healing. A genuine commitment to healing does not typically include “going after” other people.
I hope that clarifies the post a little more. Because you know… these kinds of things really do wear out the compassion that therapists will feel towards the survivor community. And I think, understandably so.
Kathy
Thank you for clarifying that. We too were wondering if we were part of the problem. It leaves a really bad feeling for us.
Alisha
Hi Rainbowoftears,
First let me say this…. THANK YOU for reading this article. It takes a LOT of courage to read it with such an open mind, and open heart, and while I know nothing about your past or why you might be taking ownership of previous problems, I can encourage you that if you genuinely learn from the points made in this article, you will certainly not be “part of the problem” in days to come.
The past is the past, Rainbowoftears, and please do not beat yourself up for where you were in the past. Take this new information, and find ways to apply it to your life in such a way that you know without a doubt that you are helping to build the overall community of support for dissociative folks.
Growth and learning is what matters, and with all the interaction you are doing here at the blog, that tells me you are working hard at both growth and learning. I would count that as progress and improvement already. 🙂
Thank you for your comment — and I wish you the best in your healing journey.
Warmly,
Kathy
Hmmmm.
Ruff stuff.
LOL, you got guts lady, and to be honest, I admire that.
Pleasantries are fine to a point, but sometimes you just goto call a spade a spade.
Anyhow, I am hoping you get some useful comments here, cuz this is most definately a blog post that is in need of comments!
Stuff keeps flitting thru my head as I read it, but I been really all over the place today (LITERALLY! I driving my kids around and took wrong turns etc 6x in my not very big town where I have lived in over 20 yrs!).
So I will try. It may not be very coherant, but maybe someone else will be more so.
This is obvo a blog post looking from 1 angle. I understand your post would have to be pages long to cover all the angles.
The thing is, as client, I am not good all the time. Nor is my T. We both make errors.
I think, from a client POV that it takes two to tango. If my behaviours are bad, then it is up to the THERAPIST to let me know her boundaries, and esp w/me being DD’ed, she needs to repeat them and for them to be very clear. She needs to be FIRM and CLEAR.
Maybe there needs to be more training or supervision/consult groups for T’s dealing with this population, so that they can better make decisions on whether to continue with a client or not. OF COURSE your average T does not like to let go of a client, esp if he/she knows it will be hurtful, cuz they are in a HELPING profession and wish to help. But they need to know, that if they are unable to maintain strong safe boundaries w/a client, then they need to let them go so that they(T) are not abused/burnt out ( and ultimately the client hurt even more…).
I think its up to the T’s to have good self care. Yes, its a difficult population to work with, and not one able to be handled by all T’s.
I also don’t think its necc. client ‘behaviours’ that burn out T’s. Its goto be hard to deal ongoingly w/so much that is ugly.
Also, to be able to deal with dissociatives requiers ALOT of brain power, cuz you gotta be able to follow the clients thot trainS. (often more than one at the same moment). Trying to follow switches etc can be hard too.
I was just telling my T, that not only are my switches fairly subtle, but if a part arrives and doesn’t know whats up, then another will tell it what to say. So T doesn’t necc know what part is there to start with, and even if she does, the words coming from that part may actually be coming from another.
CONFUSING.
I think I digress….
OK, the point is I was glad to see this post, cuz I DO want therapy to be successful and want to do my best to help T be able to do her job, and according to this, I guess for the most part I am.
My T is a DD T, and has been for more years than I care to say (too identifying) and I am grateful to have her. But I also think that *with support* more T’s could deal with the dissociative stuff. But again, they also have to have the mental/emotional ability to deal w/this stuff first.
So ya, its a two way street here…
I am getting rambly, I hate that, sorry.
DD’s suck.
But despite that I am supposedly doing the right things….therapy is still slow 🙁 I think I must be a extreemely frustrating client.
I DON’T MEAN TO BE. I DON’T.
My T keeps telling me that I am trying, and parts say I am, but others say I am not.
So I just keep trying.
I dunno what else to do.
I think most of us DD people are trying.
Its hard.
🙁
‘Cept part says its not. Its not hard at all and I a wimp.
I dunno what hard is anyways.
OK I go now, I confused.
Sorry, hope words are OK.
Ones
Hi Muffledones,
Thanks for your comment. You put a lot of thought into that, and I am glad to see that. 🙂
And YES – this is “angle one” — there are soooo many different angles, and perspectives, and layers to this topic that it’s just too impossible to get into one “blog length” article. I could be writing about different angles and different perspectives and different layers for a long time yet. I’ll keep going… so maybe some of the other areas will be also addressed — separately from this post.
You’ve brought up some good points — the need to have lots of very honest discussions between the client and the therapist about the different behaviors that occur within that relationship. And I agree with you — the discussions should include both the client behaviors and the therapist’s behaviors. Never ever ever will I say that therapists are perfect. I know they are not. I also truly believe that most conflicts and problems can be sorted out via ongoing gut-honest discussions. INTERPRETATIONS of behaviors are as important, if not more important, than the behaviors themselves. So…. it is very important for everyone to be clear about what something means.
Therapists getting adequate training, supervision, education, and their own support are important factors, yes. I do agree with you about that. I will say that even in situations involving supervision, the supervisor may very well instruct therapists to immediately remove themselves from clients exhibiting too many “attacking” behaviors. Managing self-destructive behaviors are different, but around here, there are a number of therapists that refuse to work with clients with SI issues. Individual therapists will have their own personal boundaries, and there will be “lines” that can’t be crossed, even in the therapeutic setting.
Yes, therapists do need to have good self care. That is another good point, and there are all kinds of ways that good self-care can help in these situations. And yes, therapists will have things happening in their personal lives that zap their energy and time, etc. And yes, it is important for the therapist to balance all that as much as possible. Let me also remind you …. some therapists will say it is “good self-care” for them to set boundaries with difficult clients. For that matter, refusals to work with certain clients can be most definitely be defined as a therapist doing “good self care”. So even that idea has a lot of layers too it.
Your point that it is a two-way street is good. I don’t disagree with that at all.
And keep working as hard as possible on your own healing. I’ll say this again — what your therapist wants the most, is for their clients to genuinely progress and to genuinely heal. Keeping the focus on those things is what matters!
Thanks for the post,
Kathy
Thank you for your honesty. The main reason I come back to this site again and again is because I know it will be honest, true and relevant. In a world that is full of liers, cheats and general bastards, thanks for taking the time to be honest with us. We really appreciate it.
Thanks klm98,
I greatly appreciate your comment.
I am aware that this topic could be controversial, but I am also willing to approach the hard topics….
And I am being honest. Thank you for seeing that.
I expect to have to clarify my points more than a few times, but that is ok. It’s always good to have a group discussion. 🙂
Thanks again for your post –
And thanks for coming back here to read again and again – I certainly appreciate that!
Kathy
Hi Petrogenic,
Thanks for linking my blog article on yours. That’s excellent, and I appreciate that.
I have a quick comment to make in reference to what you are saying over there.
Yes, I absolutely agree, everyone has personal accountability and personal responsibility for their own behavior. And when anyone chooses to act poorly, there should be appropriate consequences. That applies for DID survivors as much as it does to anyone else in the world.
But to answer the question posed in your blog: no, you do not have to look forward to incorporating “crazy behavior” into your life just because you are addressing your DID issues. Some people experience a lowered ability to function, but that doesn’t mean that you, or anyone, has to engage in the destructive behaviors we have been writing about. And plenty of survivors stay high-functioning all the way through the difficult years of their therapy.
And the best news is… you as an individual person get to be whoever it is that you want to be while you are going thru’ your healing. Yes, your other parts will have various views, and different perspectives, and different histories for you to incorporate. You will find parts that have experienced very different “worlds” than you have. But the goal of therapy is to introduce the parts that were stuck in the dark abuse of the past to the positive life you are building for yourself here in the current day. Teach / Encourage any of your parts who are inclined to be destructive, or dangerous, about your current standard of life.
You can be a loon if you want to, but you don’t have to. 🙂
Kathy